Transcript 1
Stacy: I’m Stacy Brooks with the Lisa McPherson Trust. And I’m very happy to be here today with Maria Pia Gardini from Italy. She contacted us after she was defrauded by the Church of Scientology of over two million dollars. Unfortunately, we get calls like Maria’s nearly every day. Scientology is trying to convince the world that it’s a benevolent, caring religion that’s being discriminated against unjustly. Listen to this woman’s story and decide for yourself what is the true face of Scientology. Maria Pia, why don’t you start by telling us how you got into Scientology.
Maria Pia: Well, I got into Scientology in 1985. My daughter was doing a little bit of drugs so I was concerned about that. And I was very scared. So somebody was talking to me about the Narconon program. So I brought her to Narconon and that’s the way I met Scientology.
Stacy: So, after she did the Narconon program, did you then decide to get into Scientology yourself?
Maria Pia: Yes. When she came out, you know, I was very alone. So she said, “Why don’t you start?” And she presented me to somebody, they were talking to me about the Purification Rundown. And they pressed a button, like, a push a button in every woman, “Your skin will become better. You will be okay. All the dirty things in your body will come out.”
Stacy: Sort of as a facial?
Maria Pia: Yeah. So, I bought that package-the Purification plus one intensive of Dianetics auditing. It is called Book One in Scientology. You know, I was scared because to be five, six, I don’t know how many hours in that sauna. So hot! And I wasn’t young. I was over 50 at the moment. So, I was really scared so the second day, I blew. I went away. I said, “That’s it with this.”
Stacy: You just didn’t go?
Maria Pia: I took off my telephone. And, okay, I had people and the doctor of the sauna come to me explaining…
Stacy: They came to your house?
Maria Pia: Yeah, sure. I think I’ve done a short purification rundown. It lasted one week and a half.
Stacy: But how did they get you to back to do it?
Maria Pia: They put some people inside. I had music in the sauna. I had people just to talk with, you know? It wasn’t bad. There was an old man who was older than me. That’s why I said, “Okay. I’m not so old. I can do it.” You know, I was very depressed regarding my father’s death. So, I was talking to a friend about that and she said, “Oh, you have to do that Book One auditing.” So, I said, “Oh, I padi for it. Let’s try.” The Book One auditor was the best one I ever had. She was a lady with a lot of affinity for me and a very good communication. So, she put me through my father’s death. It took almost eleven hours to do that. And I was so happy that I went to the Registrar, the guy that sells programs. And I say, “Hey, I want to stay more with that lady. I want another 12 hours.” And he said, “Oh no, you must buy a pack.”
Stacy: A package.
Maria Pia: At the time it was about $11,000 then. Eleven or twelve thousand.
Stacy: For ten intensives.
Maria Pia: Ten intensives, yes. I was there with her at 9:00 in the morning until 2:00 in the afternoon. And at the same time in the afternoon, I would study in the academy.
Stacy: The academy is where you go to do training in Scientology to become an auditor.
Maria Pia: Yes. And I became a Class IV auditor.
Stacy: So, you paid for your auditing training as well.
Maria Pia: Stacy, I paid for everything. From the beginning to the end of my Scientology journey, there’s not one hour auditing or anything I have done without paying. That must be clear since the beginning. So, when I attested to Book One, they say, “Oh, you have to do the grades.”
Stacy: Grades are Scientology auditing rather than Dianetics auditing.
Maria Pia: To grade 4, there’s 5 and all the steps, you know, to behave better, to rise your responsibility, all those kinds of things. To see what you have done wrong in life. I paid for it and I started. But the beginning was a drama.
Stacy: Why?
Maria Pia: There is a procedure, you can explain it, called Oprobydup.Stacy: It’s called “Opening Procedure By Duplication.” Otherwise known as Book and Bottle.
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: What happens in this procedure is that the auditor puts a book on a table at one end of the room and a bottle on a table at the other end of the room. And then, the auditor gives these commands to the preclear. “Look at that book. Walk over to it. Pick it up. What is its color? What is its temperature? What is its weight?” So the person has to go over, pick up the book, and tell the auditor what is its temperature, what is its weight, what is its color. And then the auditor says, “Thank you. Now, look at that bottle.” The person walks to the other end of the room. “Pick it up. What is its temperature? What is its weight? What is its color?” And the person has to do the same thing with the bottle. And then they repeat this procedure for hours and hours and hours, sometimes for days at a time. And it can become very, very, very maddening for the person.
Maria Pia: You know, after one hour, an hour and a half, I was out of my mind! (interviewer laughs) I took that fucking bottle and I threw the bottle! Happily, it was not a glass bottle. It was a plastic bottle. I threw it on the head of the auditor! Then, I picked up the book and the book was in a thousand pieces. And the auditor tried to physically keep me there. So, I slapped her! And I put on my shoes because I was without shoes. I opened the door and I went straight home! (interviewer laughs) So, I had four people that night at my home…
Stacy: They came to your house?
Maria Pia: Yeah, they came to my house just to say, “Okay. Not all the auditing is like this.” Okay, then we went down to grade 1, grade 0, grade 1, grade 2…it started with sec check, security check, you know? It was a long sec check-I don’t know…
Stacy: This is when they ask you about all the crimes that you have ever committee din your life.
Maria Pia: Yeah, I didn’t feel I had committed so many crimes. And the auditor tried to tell me, “Go in your past lifetime.” I said, “I don’t know anything about past lives.” So, I attested to grade 2, 3, 4. Then, they started to put me on NED, New Era Dianetics. But I had done 132 hours of Book One that is Dianetics, too. The Case Supervisor said, “No. She cannot do it. She’s clear.” I did 25 minutes of NED but I paid for the whole intensive! (laughs)
Stacy: Wait. You paid for a whole intensive of it but you only did 25 minutes?
Maria Pia: Sure. They couldn’t put me on NED so, what?
Stacy: So then, did they give you your money back for the hours that you didn’t use?Maria Pia: Oh, you believe this? No!!
Stacy: They didn’t?
Maria Pia: No! I had already paid! They didn’t refund you what you pay!
Stacy: But you didn’t use the hours!
Maria Pia: Yes, but it isn’t written in Hubbard Policy that they refund you the money-they didn’t. You paid for NED, okay, you couldn’t do NED. Thank you.
Stacy: Thank you for your donation.
Maria Pia: Yeah. So, at that moment, they said…there was a mission of Copenhagen there. So, they say, “Well, you have to go attest to clear.”
Stacy: Now, in Copenhagen and Europe, that’s where people have to go…
Maria Pia: In Denmark, yes. It’s an advanced org for Europe and Africa where you go to do your CCRD, which is the rundown to verify if you are clear.
Stacy: It’s Clear Certainty Rundown.
Maria Pia: Yes. Clear Certainty Rundown. And you can do OT Levels to OT-5. But the pack I bought was CCRD and the eligibility.
Stacy: And an eligibility is a security check…
Maria Pia: A security check and to see if you are eligible to stay in an advanced org.
Stacy: To make sure that you don’t have any crimes?
Maria Pia: At this point, I must have been Al Capone with all the security checks they did on me! (interviewer laughs) Anyway, and so I went to Copenhagen. I was a Sea Org member.
Stacy: How did you get into the Sea Org?
Maria Pia: When I was doing the grades, there was a mission from the CLO Continental Liaison Officer…
Stacy: Which is a management organization.
Maria Pia: Management elite. They came down and they convinced me that, you know, “The Sea Org, we are a huge group. We are friends with each other. You will never be alone. You will have your free auditing. You will have your bridge. You are trained. You can become this and that and that…” They were talking, talking, talking.
Stacy: And you’ll get all of this as part of your…
Maria Pia: No, I didn’t get anything.
Stacy: But they were telling you that you’ll get this as part of being a Sea Org member.
Maria Pia: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Stacy: That you won’t have to pay for your auditing and you won’t have to pay for your training?
Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. So, I arrived to Copenhagen…
Stacy: Since you had already paid for your clear package, they said go ahead and pay for that but then, after that, you won’t have to pay?
Maria Pia: Mm-hmm. Happily, I arrived to Copenhagen with pockets full of money because otherwise, I would have slept in the garden there or under a bridge.
Stacy: Why?
Maria Pia: (laughs) I arrived to AOSH…
Stacy: Advanced Organization of Saint Hill.
Maria Pia: Mm-hmm. They have a huge building there-beautiful-on one of the main streets of Copenhagen. The girl at reception said, “Where are you sleeping?” I said, “I don’t know. I’m a staff member. What do you think? Where am I sleeping?” “Oh yeah, but you are from another org. You have to pay for your accommodation.”
Stacy: Isn’t your org supposed to pay for it?
Maria Pia: Yes. I went to the LRH Comm, the communicator of LRH. I said, “Why?” They say, “You know, CLO has debts with us not money in deposit.” So, okay.
Stacy: So you pay.
Maria Pia: So, they bring me to the Northland Hotel. It’s a pig place. A pig sty. It was dirty because the Sea Org was cleaning it. The carpets had holes like this (indicating). So, they showed me some room, and they gave me one room and I paid for that room. And for the food.
Stacy: So, you’re supposed to be getting this as a student.
Maria Pia: I didn’t get anything but I was in Copenhagen. What was I to do? Go back? No. I started the CCRD cycle. That was terrible! Because there was only one auditor auditing in Italian but he was Swiss German. So, he was speaking German and so-called Italian that was not Italian! I didn’t understand what I was saying. He didn’t understand what I was responding. He was writing something that was not exactly what I was saying. The estimation was two weeks to stay there. I was there two months! So, at the end, there was this Spanish auditor-very good one-that was speaking very good Italian. And I did the CCRD with him and I attested to clear. When I made the speech after clear, I didn’t know what to say. I didn’t feel so expanded! I didn’t feel something come up, up, like that, from my head.
Stacy: You didn’t feel any change from being clear?
Maria Pia: I felt happy because I was in Copenhagen. I met a lot of friends. And I remember I have this picture of LRH, the one where he’s sitting on the ship with the finger like that, in front of me, a giant picture. And they make you do the speech in front of that. I was looking at that man. I was saying, I wanted to tell him, “Hey guy! I’m not getting what you promised me!” I don’t feel so expanded. I was just happy. But most of all, I was happy because I had finished! (interviewer laughs) So, for me, the only thing was to put on a silver bracelet and I was clear. So, I can go back to Italy, see my daughter. So, I went back to Italy.
Maria: I went to the CLO to do the product zero.
Stacy: Product zero is a preparation for becoming a Sea Org member.
Maria Pia: Yeah. I don’t know how you can prepare someone to become a Sea Org member by washing plates and cleaning toilets!
Stacy: Is that what you were doing?
Maria Pia: Yeah. From 7:00 in the morning, I was in the kitchen for 70 people, to cook for 70 people. And I was dead tired, you know? We went to bed at midnight and a half; at 6:00, get up because at 7:00 the breakfast must be ready for the staff members. I went to my car and I went back to Rome without telling anybody.
Stacy: So you decided to leave?
Maria Pia: They were looking for me around and they tried to call my house in Rome and they found me there. I said, “That’s it. I’ve done enough for me.”
Stacy: At that point, you were ready to be done with Scientology?
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: Well, how did they get you back?
Maria Pia: They came to Rome to convince me to come back to the CLO. They were sleeping on the carpets! I didn’t have so much place, so much bedroom, so many bedrooms. I say, “No more plate washing? No more toilet cleaning?” They say, “No, you attest that you finished at that moment.” I said, “But I’ve done two weeks. I’m supposed to stay a month and a half, two months.” “No, no. It’s done. You are okay. Because you are an auditor. We put you to audit stuff. That would be a product zero, to audit stuff.” At that point, the senior case supervisor, Italy, that was on OT-7, decided that it was good to have me as a qual sec, qualification sec, for Italy because I was the most trained there. Me and her were the only two.
Stacy: Qualifications secretary is a pretty high level technical post.
Maria Pia: Yes. It’s the highest technical post in the country.
Stacy: And you have to be at some OT level?
Maria Pia A trained auditor, cramming officer. I did all the cramming officer. So, they decided it would be nice if I would be OT. So, “Maria, you have to buy your OT levels.”
Stacy: Wait a minute. What you mean you have to buy them? You’re in the Sea Org.
Maria Pia: Yes, but…
Stacy: It’s part of your job. Why would you have to buy them?
Maria Pia: I had, under me in the CLO Italy, stuff that were Scientologists for 18 years! They weren’t yet clear! I wasn’t 20 years old! I was 50!
Stacy: But I mean, it is not the policy of Scientology for someone to have to pay for their auditing if they are a staff member.
Maria Pia: In ’98, I was in Scientology. I think I’ve seen applied policy once or twice. Policy are for stupid people that read it.
Stacy: You mean people who think it’s being applied?
Maria Pia: Yes. Mm-hmm. So, they sent me to Copenhagen again.
Stacy: And you paid for your OT levels.
Maria Pia: I paid for OT-1, OT-2 and OT-3. I arrived in Copenhagen. They were very happy. They put me imMediately on the chair to audit.
Stacy: So, now you’ve gone to Copenhagen to get your OT levels but now you’re auditing people that have paid for auditing?
Maria Pia: Sure.
Stacy: So, you’re working for them?
Maria Pia: Yeah, I was a Sea Org member. So, in the morning, I was studying for the OT levels and getting audited because, you know, the eligibility and being a Sea Org member, security check, security check, security check, like, if I have killed somebody!
Stacy: And eligibility is a series of security checks that you have to have.
Maria Pia: Mm-hmm.
Stacy: They are security checking you to make sure that you don’t have any crimes before you go on to your OT levels.
Maria Pia: Because it is very confidential material. They will not disclose that material to you. And in the afternoon from 3:00 until night, I was auditing public.
Stacy: Until the end of the evening, you were auditing?
Maria Pia: Public.
Stacy: Public. PC’s.
Maria Pia: So it took me much longer to do OT levels.
Stacy: Were you also paying for your hotel?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I was paying for my food. I was paying for my hotel. I was paying for everything.
Stacy: Okay.
Maria Pia: Because I was a Sea Org member from another org so they told me, “We are not supposed to feed you.”
Stacy: But your org is supposed to pay for your meals and your accommodations. But your org didn’t have the money, so you paid for it?
Maria Pia: They had the money. I did OT-1.
Stacy: What was that like?
Maria Pia: Oh, God. I read the, you know, it’s a small…you have done it. It’s a small thing, OT-1. And they say, “Okay. Now, go out, walk around and expand yourself. Find somebody that you put your attention on. Look at the them and you have to get expanded.” I said, “What does it mean?” (interviewer laughs) I went in a coffee shop, I took a coffee. I say, because they say, “Stay a couple of hours.” Well, what was I going to do for a couple of hours at this end of Copenhagen?
Stacy: Just sit and have some coffee!
Maria Pia: Yeah. So, I go to have coffee and I came back and they say, “Okay. You can go to attest to EP of OT-1. (interviewer laughs) “How do you feel?” “Very good!” I said.
Stacy: Why did you say that?
Maria Pia: Because I don’t want to go back and walk out there for two hours in Copenhagen. (interviewer laughs) I also went shopping. I bought a pair of shoes.
Stacy: Well, that always makes me feel expanded…shopping.
Maria Pia: Yeah. If I want to expand, I shop! (interviewer laughs) But, you know, inside myself, I felt like I was doing something wrong.
Stacy: What do you mean?
Maria Pia: When I came back, I felt exactly as I felt when I went out!
Stacy: Why didn’t you tell them that?
Maria Pia: I asked for an interview. And I told to this lady, I said, “Listen, something must be wrong with me. I feel like a piece of stone. Because maybe I don’t understand but that’s difficult. You know I’m a good student. I’ve done university. I graduated language. I’ve graduated the first part of medicine. So, I’m not somebody that…How come I don’t understand here?” They say, “Ah. You have to go on. Two and Three will disclose you the world!”
Stacy: So, in other words, you told the interviewer that you didn’t feel any different after OT-1?
Maria Pia: They say you have to go to OT-3.
Stacy: And she said go ahead and attest anyway and move on to OT-1I?
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: So, she knew that you hadn’t made any changes on OT-1?
Maria Pia: They do that to everybody, you know? I saw faces like that…
Stacy: But don’t you pay for OT-1?
Maria Pia: Yes.
Stacy: And they know it doesn’t do anything?
Maria Pia: They will keep me there for three years. So, I went to OT-2. I see it is the first real OT level. In the course room, I went to the supervisor and I say, “Listen, explain to me what is written here.” He said, “It is in Italian. Can’t you read it?” (interviewer laughs) “Yes. But I don’t understand.”
Stacy: Because OT-2 basically says that you have lots of implants…
Maria Pia: Implants.
Stacy: …in your head.
Maria Pia: Electric implants.
Stacy: And these are all from millions of years ago.
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: Thousands, hundreds of thousands…
Maria Pia: Yeah. Billions of years ago! And you have to get rid of all those implants.
Stacy: Yeah. You’re given a series of sheets.
Maria Pia: Sheets and you have to go through those sheets and the implant that reads, you have to take it and start to…
Stacy: You say it over and over again?
(both talking at once)
Stacy: And you say these things over and over until…
Maria Pia: Over and over until…
Stacy: …something happens.
Maria Pia: Or you get so sick that you close the meter and you go. (interviewer laughs) So, I started auditing OT-2, my needle on the E-meter was like this (indicating). In Copenhagen, they have small auditing rooms, one near the other. So, I was hearing people yelling in the other room. I was laughing. I say, “What do I do with this meter? It’s at the moment…
Stacy: They’re yelling to try to get the meter to read…
(both talking at once)
Maria Pia: To get the meter to read. I start to do the same and the meter was (makes noise). It started to read, I’d say, “Okay…”
Stacy: Yeah, exactly.
Maria Pia: I’d go, “The implant!” OT-2 was five sessions, I think. Three, four sessions, I don’t remember. It was two days.
Stacy: Were you ever to find that light that they talk about?
Maria Pia: Ah! That light! You remember?
Stacy: Yeah.
Maria Pia: There’s a light that you have to find. The room was totally black! Black walls, painted black walls. I had this light, it was on the E-meter like that (indicating) and I was looking to look for that light.
Stacy: The light that is supposed to be in the implants?
Maria Pia: The implants. Have you ever found it? I never found it! I told the CS, “There’s no light! There’s an elephant!” Because there was a circus near the auditing room so we heard the elephant screaming. (interviewer laughs)
Stacy: But no light.
Maria Pia: But no light. So, they sent me back in session and said, “We have to see.” And look, there’s this medicine. When you fix something at a certain moment and you fix without moving your eyes, that certain moment, you start to see some spots. That’s the nervous system. That’s not the light of the implant. Nothing to do with the light of the implant.” So, I saw that light.
Stacy: By fixing your attention…
Maria Pia: By looking at the wall in front. So, I attested to OT-2.
Stacy: So, you turned in your folder to the CS and said…
Maria Pia: “I think I’m done.”
Stacy: What’s supposed to happen when you finish OT-2? I don’t remember.
Maria Pia You get rid of all the implants of the track.
Stacy: Are you supposed to have any new realization or anything?
Maria Pia: Yeah. Your track is free from implants. That’s the EP of OT-2. So, I went in the course room of OT-3. I was so happy! I say, “Now, they tell me the wall of fire! I will find something great!”
Stacy: The secrets of the universe!
Maria Pia: There was a guy near me in Copenhagen and when he read the OT-3, he fell down on the floor. I said, “Oh what is that?!” So, I put it there and I started to read then I went through it again. Because LRH said the more time you go through it, the more you understand. I read it five times and I was telling God, “I know that data. I’m sure I know that data already.”
Stacy: Okay. Now, you’re talking about the story about…
Maria Pia: About the vulcanon.
Stacy: 75 million years ago, a galactic overlord…
Maria Pia: The legend of the space there, the loyal officer.
Stacy: They gathered all the people up in planes…
Maria Pia: All the people up together and…
Stacy: …and shipped them to the volcanoes.
Maria Pia: Shipped them to the volcanoes. There’s the…I don’t know in English how you call this…
Stacy: The electronic strip and you got all the implants.
Maria Pia: Electronic strip that goes up and down like the stairs.
Stacy: Wavy.
Maria Pia: Yeah. Well, I was sure, because LRH talked about past lives, etcetera. I said, “But this is impossible! I’m too old to have done this in a past life!”
Stacy: So, this material is sounding familiar to you?
Maria Pia: Very familiar. I’m a reader of science fiction. I have more than 200 books of science fiction at home. One of them is the Legend of Space. Go there, and you will find the same electronic thing. And you will find the electronic trapping of volcano.
Stacy: So, this story had been written by somebody else?
Maria Pia: All of what LRH wrote is written by somebody else! By Buhddism, by Koran, by science fiction…
Stacy: By the Koran, yeah.
Maria Pia: The Koran. But when you start to say that your body is made up…
Stacy: Of these body thetans.
Maria Pia: Of these body thetans, all of my body was itching! It was like have an illness. I was starting to move on the chair! It wasn’t real to me that my body was made by body thetans. That so many people were with me. And you remember there’s a part that says, “When you go in a place that you are sure you’ve never been there, but because a body thetan that is with you was there.” So, I started to remember, yes, once I was in Austria with my father. I was sure that I had already been there. Maybe it was a body thetan. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe there are body thetans. So, okay. I finished the course and I went to the auditing and the needle was stuck there.
Stacy: Well, the needle is supposed to read…
Maria Pia: The needle is supposed to move when you find the body thetan and you try to talk to him.
Stacy: You’re supposed to, yeah, it reads when you talk to the BT.
Maria Pia: It’s supposed to read. It was like that, impossible to move it. When I start to become angry, when I start to say, “I’m a piece of stone. It’s my fault. I’m different from the others. What happened with me?” I was so angry that the needle started to read like crazy! They said, “Oh, I found all the body thetans!” After, when I left Scientology, I realized opening… I had a friend of mine-this is an engineer-opening the meter to look at it. It reacts on nervous sensation, on your nerves.
Stacy: Not on BT’s.
Maria Pia: And on body sensations. If you feel bad, it’s not a BT. There’s no such thing as that. At the moment, I didn’t know. I attested to OT-3. I was called by the Captain, the Commanding Officer in Copenhagen. He said, “No, you have to do OT-4 and OT5.” And I said, “I don’t have anything anymore to audit.”
Stacy: You’ve already gotten rid of your own case because you’re clear. Now, you’ve gotten rid of all your BT’s, what else is there to do?
Maria Pia: After OT-3, no more BT’s.
Stacy: There’s nothing left, right.
Maria Pia: “You have to do OT-4, the OT drug rundown.” I said, “I never took drugs.” “Yeah, but you run the drugs in all the past lifetimes.” So, I called my mother and said, “Send me the money for OT-4 and OT-5.” My mother was sick and tired of this Scientology things.
Stacy: Did she try to tell you not to pay your money to this?
Maria Pia: Yeah! Oh! My mother called the police!
Stacy: She did?
Maria Pia: At home. I will tell you after. So she sent me the money and I went to OT-4 and when I read it, I said, “More BT’s? More body thetans?” “Yes. Because those body thetans you cannot get rid of with OT-3. They are druggie.”
Stacy: So, you’re supposed to be done with your BT’s on OT-3 but now you get on OT-4 and you find out that there’s more BT’s.
Maria Pia: Yeah. There’s more BT’s because they are druggie.
Stacy: So, you couldn’t find them on OT-3.
Maria Pia: They are sleeping! So, you’re on OT-4, you have to wake them up!
Stacy: Because of their drugs?
Maria Pia: Drugs. So, OT-4 is very fast, you know. In this lifetime, like they say, I never took more than aspirin or drink some glasses of whiskey. So what? I did my OT-4…
Stacy: So, you couldn’t find a lot of other lifetimes of drugs, huh?
Maria Pia: No.
Stacy: Ah.
Maria Pia: I did my OT-4. I attested to my OT-4. I said, “Is that-that’s it with BT’s?” “Oh, yes!”
Stacy: Let me ask you something, Maria. OT-4 costs a certain amount of money?
Maria Pia: Yes.
Stacy: Whether you spend two minutes on it or fifty hours?
Maria Pia: It cost, at the time, it cost…so, let’s see, like $3,000.
Stacy: So, you pay $3,000 to do OT-4.
Maria Pia: I did OT-4 in 25 minutes!
Stacy: But did you get any of the money back?
Maria Pia: No! That’s…you pay for OT-4. If you do 25 minutes or 12 hours, that’s paid.
Stacy: So, if you only take 25 minutes. It doesn’t matter to…
Maria Pia: I asked them. I said, “Can I put that time on OT-5?” “No, that’s OT-4 intensive. It’s something different.”
Stacy: So, you just lost that money?
Maria Pia: Yeah. And I started the eligibility for OT-5. I say, “I’ve done 25 eligibility until now.”
Stacy: Now you’re supposed to get more sec checks?
Maria Pia: Yeah! I say, “Why? I finished OT-4 today. I go on OT-5 tomorrow. Which crime do you think I can commit between tonight and tomorrow morning?” (interviewer laughs) So this time, the eligibility was a False Purpose Rundown the FPRD…
Stacy: Now, False Purpose Rundown is a particular type of security checking where they ask you…
Maria Pia: You look for the evil intention.
Stacy: Right. So, you’re not only being sec checked for your crimes but then you’re asked for the evil intention behind the crime?
Maria Pia: Yes. But wait a moment. Do you remember an HCOB meter reading of OT-3 and above? It’s not always your evil intention! It can be a body thetan’s evil intention.
Stacy: So, now are you being asked whose it is?
Maria Pia: Sure. And at that moment, I went crazy! I said, “What?? They are not gone?”
Stacy: (Laughing) I’ve still got more BT’s?
Maria Pia: Can be some more that had evil intention. So, they did, went out with OT-3 but with the False Purpose Rundown…
Stacy: So, they haven’t left on OT-3, they haven’t left on OT-4. But maybe they’ll leave on OT-5?
Maria Pia: They will never leave! They are not there!! So, okay, I arrive on OT-5. When I read the OT-5-OT-5 is audited by an auditor. It’s…
Stacy: Now, this is New Era Dianetics for OT’s? This is NOT’s.
Maria Pia: Yes. NOTs. That was the one.
Stacy: But an auditor is auditing you on it?
Maria Pia: Yeah. It is not like auditing solo like OT-3 or OT-1. OT-4 and OT-5, there is an auditor auditing you.
Stacy: But now it turns out that OT-5 is all about finding more BT’s.
Maria Pia: Sure and asking them, “What are you?” So you get answered, like, a banana; like a fish; like Napoleon; like…and “Who are you?”
Stacy: Like a toe?
Maria Pia: Like a toe. Like a plague. Like a bottle of water.
Stacy: Like an ear? A tooth?
Maria Pia: Yeah, like anything.Stacy: Anything can be a…
Maria Pia: Anything! And then he asks, “Who are you?” And so, you come up with Napoleon; Jesus Christ. You come up with your mother, your father.
Stacy: Whatever.
Maria Pia: Whatever! But it’s not their answer! It’s you!
Stacy: But you’re thinking, at the time, it’s the BT telling you these things.
Maria Pia: Yeah. I was thinking in my head…I wasn’t a hundred percent sure. But I was thinking if LRH says that, must be that! I saw people so happy around. I was happy too, you know? I was in Copenhagen having a good time; go in session, a lot of communication with my auditor. I thought, I got rid of all this garbage, okay. I attested to OT-5. Nothing more to do in Copenhagen. They couldn’t reg me for anything because you cannot do OT-6 or OT-7 in Copenhagen. It’s only…
Stacy: So, it’s as far you can go in Copenhagen.
Maria Pia: Yeah. It’s as far as I could go. So, they let me out. I went back…the 6th of December, there was a huge raid in Italy.
Stacy: What happened?
Maria Pia: The police, at 8:00 of the 6th of December in all the town where there were Scientology organizations, at 8:00, they went in the organization, they shut up all the organizations and…
Stacy: They shut them down?
Maria Pia: They shut them all down! They took all the folders, all the materials, everything! They shut down the CLO! Everything! So, they called me on the phone from Rome. “Oh, Maria. Please, please, please! Can we go in your house?”
Stacy: Did they mean to live or did they mean to set up their offices?
Maria Pia: No. To set up their offices in my house. So, to say no, I felt, like, you know, those guys in the middle of the street. I say, “Okay. Go.” But I called my maid, I said, “Hey, no keys. You go there at 8:00 so they can open. And at 8:00 when you leave, they have to leave.” But they never left! They were there at midnight, at 1:00! She didn’t give them the key but they were inside. So, the people in the building started to call my mother. My mother was living in another town. “What’s going on in your daughter’s apartment? She’s not there. They are people going up and down the whole night.” I…I believe that somebody was sleeping there. They never told me but…
Stacy: They set up the whole CLO in your apartment?
Maria Pia: The whole Rome org.
Stacy: The whole Rome org!
Maria Pia: The CLO was in Milano.
Stacy: So, they had people coming in and out on course and things?
Maria Pia: I arrived from Copenhagen. I say, “Guys, out!” And I couldn’t go to bed because, in my bedroom, there was the case supervisor with the ivory tower. The ivory tower is the room of the case supervisor.
Stacy: With PC folders all around?
Maria Pia: All around! (interviewer laughs) In the bathroom, they were auditing. Sitting on the toilet. It was like a comedy! So, they say, “But we don’t have money!” So, I say, “Look for an apartment. I will, as a donation, to have you out of here, I pay two months rent for that apartment.” And the org went!
Stacy: So, now you’re renting the org an apartment.
Maria Pia: Yeah, for two months because the CLO Italy told me that they would give me back the money.
Stacy: And did they ever give you back the money?
Maria Pia: Never! That’s a Scientology way to act. So, they were in one hotel and they started to cry, “There’s no money.” The poor staff members in CLO Italy, they never had something to eat. That was terrible, you know? Seeing the children of the staff members because there was a nursery in the CLO. And the children…I was out to buy milk and biscuits for those children. That was terrible! Really terrible! So, I had to rent an apartment and that was an apart hotel. I made the qualification office inside there, started to order the staff. We lost in the CLO, half the staff. They understood before me that was bullshit.
Stacy: Because the Italian government shut down the orgs for what? For fraud?
Maria Pia: There was a persecution, legal persecution…penal persecution. Staff were put in jail!
Stacy: What were the charges?
Maria Pia: The charges were burglary.
Stacy: In other words…
Maria Pia: Stealing money from the people.
Stacy: Fraud?
Maria Pia: Fraud. So imMediately someone from the management arrived from INT.
Stacy: Is that when Jesse came?
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: Jesse Prince.
Maria Pia: Jesse Prince. They looked like they are Rockefeller. They rent a hotel, a full hotel without one penny. The CLO had all the accounts blocked.
Stacy: So where did the money come from?
Maria Pia: It came from the public.
Stacy: They got donations?
Maria Pia: Donations. Donations from me, from everybody.
Stacy: How much did you donate to that?
Maria Pia: Well, the donation from me was to rent five bedrooms in this hotel, paying to make the qualification of is to make auditing room, to make the ivory tower for the CS like this and have them sleep inside at night. At that moment, the IC from Flag, from Clearwater, came to the hotel. And he said, “Guys, why don’t you send Maria Pia to Flag to do OT-6 and OT-7?” So, I said, “Okay. If you want, I will go.” They said, “Yes, but you have to buy your package.” (interviewer laughs)
Stacy: How could you have to buy your package if you’re…
Maria Pia: The problem was I didn’t want to ask my mother for money. And I had spent so much money in this period. So, you know, I did the most stupid thing to do. I went to Rome and I sold my apartment.
Stacy: Oh, no! You did?
Maria Pia: I did. And I gave the money to pay OT-6 and OT-7.Stacy: How much was that?
Maria Pia: It was $70,000 because of eligibility, because of this, that, and that. So, I arrived to Clearwater. I went to Fort Harrison. They presented me to Pare Amquist, that was my registrar. I say, “I don’t need a registrar. Everything is paid. Berthing is paid. OT-6, 7 is paid. Seven intensives of eligibility and I don’t know what else is paid.”
Stacy: Seven intensives?
Maria Pia: Yes. But you know, when you are not in the course room, when you are in the auditing, you can approve your auditor abilities. Doing Class IX, Class VI but you can…
Stacy: But you’re coming from Italy. If you’re going to get training at Flag as a student from Italy…
Maria Pia: An org.
Stacy: …then your org in Italy is supposed to pay for your training. That’s what the policy says.
Maria Pia: We already talked about policies.
Stacy: You’re not supposed to…
Maria Pia: Toilet paper was the policies. They never used it.
Stacy: You’re not supposed to have to pay for your own training.
Maria Pia: No. But I paid. And they would say, “But you are wealthy. You have money. So, help Scientology. Help Scientology.” I was helping.
Stacy: So, they’re basically telling you that it would be unethical for you not to pay for your own services since you have the money.
Maria Pia: They told me I was not a good Scientologist.
Stacy: If you didn’t pay for your own services, it would mean you aren’t a good Scientologist.
Maria Pia: Sure. I want to cry when I think of that.
Stacy: So, you’re not making any money?
Maria Pia: No. I’m spending money.
Stacy: You’re spending money.
Maria Pia: Yeah. I’m spending money.
Stacy: Nobody’s paying you…
Maria Pia: No.
Stacy: …for any of this work that you do?
Maria Pia: Yeah, they were paying me $9.00 a week when I was in the CLO.
Stacy: Is this how much all the staff at that organization were getting paid a week, $9.00?
Maria Pia: Yeah. So, I started OT-6 and when I arrived in the course room, I start to read about BT’s and body thetans and cumulated bits called clusters and all the kinds of things. I went nuts! I say, “What is this?” He says, “Another kind!” (interviewer laughs) I say, “How many kinds of body thetans are there? Tell me! Tell me when I have to find new PC’s to audit.” (interviewer laughs)
Stacy: What kind was this?
Maria Pia: The same as OT-5.
Stacy: They were asleep on OT-5 and now they’re awake?
Maria Pia: No, no. They are the same. We don’t know if they were asleep, awake or looking at movies. (interviewer laughs) What I can tell you is the same thing. You ask, “What are you? Who are you?”
Stacy: Only this time, you’re there by yourself.
Maria Pia: Yeah. You do it by yourself.
Stacy: There’s no auditor there? You’re holding both the cans in one hand.
Maria Pia: There’s no auditor. Both the cans.
Stacy: Solo auditing.
Maria Pia: Meanwhile, I was auditing OT-6, I started the briefing course. I did the briefing course.
Stacy: Okay. Now, the briefing course is…
Maria Pia: Classic!
Stacy: …the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course. This is the big, important auditing course that takes months to do.
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: Lots of tapes to listen to.
Maria Pia: 350 tapes, yeah.
Stacy: 350 tapes to listen to.
Maria Pia: And I did it in English. There’s no briefing course in Italian. There wasn’t at the time.
Stacy: Right. These are all L. Ron Hubbard talking, giving lectures.
Maria Pia: I did OT-6. I said, “Now! They are gone!”
Stacy: No more BT’s! (laughs)
Maria Pia: No more BT’s until OT-7!
Stacy: Now, you get on to OT-7 and now you find there’s more BT’s?
Maria Pia: This is a comedy like OT-7. You know, they have people, like body guards, they bring you from one side to the other. If you have to go outside the building because you have the folder, the solo folder, they have security out of the door. That’s like a comedy, a Spielberg movie.
Stacy: They have guards posted?
Maria Pia: They have plenty of guards and they have rifles!
Stacy: They have rifles???!
Maria Pia: Yes.
Stacy: Armed guards??
Maria Pia: Yeah. They have it in the Fort Harrison.
Stacy: Yeesh!
Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. I went to do OT-7 and I said, “There are more!” (interviewer laughs) So, what we ask them this time, the same think like OT-6, I say, “Why don’t you do them all together? 6, 7, 8 or everything?” If they divide it in three, they get three times the money. That’s the joke! You know, I tell you, one day I was in a room in the Sandcastle, for OT-7…Stacy: The hotel where people go in Clearwater.
Maria Pia: Yeah. When you bring your folder, you carry your folder. You finish the session, you have to bring the folder from every session to the CS, the case supervisor. It is very confidential so you have your briefcase locked and attached to your wrist with a chain.
Stacy: The briefcase is attached to your wrist with a chain?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I will show you the picture, it’s nice. And I didn’t want to go in the street with, like, if I was jailed. So, I said, “I’ll take a room there.” It was less expensive also because it was the old Sandcastle with mice, rats, cockroaches. We had…you are never alone in the bedroom. (interviewer laughs) That was nice. I remember once I was in session with bare feet doing OT-7 and I felt something on my feet. I looked, like that, there was a mouse on my feet! (interviewer laughs) I got a lot of reads on that E-meter! I was auditing the mouse BT’s. Then I finished OT-7. That, you know, I was there since April I stayed until January.
Stacy: But now, you did OT-7 in less than a year?
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: Aren’t there people that have been on OT-7 for up to 15 years?
Maria Pia: It depends on how much money they have. That depends from the money.
Stacy: Is that really what you think it depends on?
Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. For a month and a half, I did almost 800 hours, let’s say 700 and something.
Stacy: You’re sitting there for 800 hours?
Maria Pia: Day and night because I was allowed to audit also during the night. I had a set up in my room. I had a coffee machine. I had yogurt. I had everything. If I wake up in the night, I was taking a yogurt, making coffee, and audit!
Stacy: So you sat there for 800 hours auditing BT’s?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I don’t know what I was auditing!
Stacy: What do you think you were doing now, looking back on it?
Maria Pia: I was thinking. I was thinking and thinking. When my father was dead. You know, you think about death and you get reads. Because the nervous system is reading on the meter.
Stacy: So, you get a read. You go, “Okay. Good. There’s another BT.”
Maria Pia: Oh. There’s another. I got it.
Stacy: You get anything on the meter…
Maria Pia: And then you start to ask him, “Who are you? What are you? A banana. Who are you? Your father. Okay. Thank you.” Blow.
Stacy: Looking back on it now, do you think there is such a thing as a body thetan?
Maria Pia: It was a comedy. No. There’s no such thing. You are probably getting into your unconscious level and you’ll get, staying on that chair, I got a lot of body motion of nerves. Reaction of body itching or headache. Ahh! That’s a BT! Must be that! I have a headache! That’s because you believe. You believe in something. You want to believe. You pay so much that you want…it must be true!
Stacy: You pay so much money…
Maria Pia: You want to believe it! So, I attested to Class 6. I went on Class 6 internship.
Stacy: So, now you finished OT-7?
Maria Pia: No. No, I was auditing on OT-7. You know, at the beginning, I was auditing a lot. Then I was sick and tired of it. So, I started to have two, three hours between the sessions. So, they put me in the Class 6 internship. I was auditing public, paid public of Flag!
Stacy: Okay. Now, I’m sorry to keep saying this but isn’t that against the policies of Scientology?
Maria Pia: Sure. Yeah.
Stacy: You’re not supposed to be auditing public paying people on an internship.
Maria Pia: No. For three reasons: first, I was another org, Sea Org member; second, I was a paying public here; third, you are not supposed to audit, per policy, paid public during the internship. You do co-audit with students that are in the internship with you.
Stacy: Did you ever bring this up to the intern supervisor?
Maria Pia: Yes. Yes. You know, but it was like I’m a Flag auditor. It was, like, “Ha Ha! I’m a Flag auditor!”
Stacy: You’re paying them to let them make money off your work?
Maria Pia: Yes.
Stacy: This a very smart organization, isn’t it?
Maria Pia: It wouldn’t have all those buildings, all that bullshit they have around like the Hollywood Boulevard Building, like the Fort Harrison, like the Clearwater. Who do you think paid for all that? People like me! There’s plenty of people like me. And the 15th or 22nd of January, I attested to OT-7. At that point, I remember the ethics officer for staff, he called me and said, “Okay, Maria Pia. Now, you are OT-7, full Class 6 auditor. From now, you are a Flag staff member.” I said, “Wait a moment. They have a contract signed in Italy.” So, I don’t know what they did behind my back. The contract was sent to Flag. They sent another poor girl to Italy that was totally…
Stacy: You mean to replace you?
Maria Pia: Yeah. My replacement was on the _____________ five months! She’s no longer there since years. I say, “I need to go at least one month to Italy. I need to go to the CLO. I don’t know. Did the CLO declare that I left without telling anything?” I arrived to the CLO in Italy. Listen, Stacy, I was transparent.
Stacy: You were what?
Maria Pia: Transparent. Everybody would say, “Good morning.”
Stacy: Invisible.
Maria Pia: Invisible. They were looking through me, like that.
Stacy: Why?
Maria Pia: Because, “Oh, you blew the CLO! You went…” “No!” I say, “Wait a moment! You accepted that I stay at Flag.”
Stacy: They approved it!
Maria Pia: They approved. Anyway, I went home. I packed my luggage. I saw my daughter, my granddaughter, my mom. I paid for my flight. I came back to Flag. I arrive, I say, “Here I am. Very happy I’m in Florida.” And they say, “You know, we have a problem.” I say, “What problem?” They say, “Okay. In the Hacienda,” the Hacienda here is a place where the crew and the staff members live.
Stacy: The Hacienda is a motel.
Maria Pia: It’s not a motel. It’s a lot of buildings.
Stacy: An apartment building.
Maria Pia: Apartment building and all the staff members from Fort Harrison and Sandcastle live there.
Stacy: And they call it the Hacienda.
Maria Pia: There are Hacienda and QI.
Stacy: QI – the Quality Inn, right?
Maria Pia: The staff members and their children. In the Hacienda, there are staff members that have no children.
Stacy: Okay. So, the Quality Inn. They call the QI.
Maria Pia: The QI.
Stacy: And that’s where the staff live with their children.
Maria Pia: That’s a big place that’s like the Hacienda.
Stacy: And the Hacienda is what?
Maria Pia: Now, they tell me the Hacienda is marvelous. They remake everything. They spent a lot of money to re-do everything. At that time, it was a pig place. (interviewer laughs)
Stacy: A pig sty!
Maria Pia: I wouldn’t have put my pig inside there! I didn’t know the Hacienda. I haven’t seen the Hacienda. So, I say, “Okay. But where do I go to sleep?” They say, “You know, we will renovate Sandcastle as soon as we have some spare rooms that are free. We’ll give you a room in Sandcastle.” So, I arrive to Sandcastle with my suitcases. I enter the room…there was no bed! I said, “Where do I sleep on the carpet?” They say, “Oh God. They already threw the beds away because they had to do work to renovate all that.” The first night I slept on the carpet. So, I went out and bought a bed and mattress, sheets, blankets, everything.
Stacy: If you’re in the Sea Organization at Flag, you are supposed to be provided a bed!
Maria Pia: Yeah, but there were no beds. What was I to do? To take a flight and leave?
Stacy: Did somebody say, “No. We don’t have any beds for you?”
Maria Pia: There’s no bed! We will bring me to see a bed. The bed was large like this, 80 centimeters, and it was falling apart. And the mattress, you have to see the mattress. It was so dirty! And it smelled so bad. I said, “You want to give me that bed? Wait a moment. I take my shower every morning. I can’t do that.” So, I went out. I bought a bed, a night table. I bought something to put my things inside, a chair, an armchair. I made a nice white room, white and pink. Surprise! Surprise! After one week, arrived the bill to pay.
Stacy: You?
Maria Pia: Yeah.
Stacy: What do you mean?
Maria Pia: I had to pay for the room!
Stacy: They’re charging you for the room?
Maria Pia: Yes!
Stacy: The room where you just bought the bed?
Maria Pia: Yes!
Stacy: Why?
Maria Pia: I was, like, crazy! And the CO at Sandcastle said, “That’s their order, you know, you are occupying a public room.” I say, “Yes. A public empty room!”
Stacy: Unbelievable!
Maria Pia: So, we arrive to an agreement. I pay a bit less than half of the price.
Stacy: So, you’re now paying them to work for them?
Maria Pia: Yes. In the meantime, I will be Class 9, Class 9 internship, Class 9 CS (Case Supervisor)…
Stacy: Auditing for them?
Maria Pia: And auditing public and during the study time, I was doing Class 4, 6, 9 CS internship. I start to CS. I was auditing and CS’ing. At a certain point, I said, “That’s it. I leave for Italy. I cannot go on paying here. What is this?”
Stacy: It’s insane!
Maria Pia: It’s my own furniture and I pay? (interviewer laughs) I went to the Captain. At that point, the Captain was Debbie Cook. When I arrived at Flag, the Captain was Ron Norton. Ron Norton was posted in Golden Era…
Stacy: Now, Golden Era is Gold, which is outside of Los Angeles.
Maria Pia: Gold, yeah. Yeah. And the new Captain was Debbie Cook. So I went to her straight after a staff muster. I said, “Okay. I leave.” “No. No. Now, there is a place for you in the Hacienda!” I arrived to the Hacienda. I can tell you, Stacy. Oh, the first time I saw the Hacienda. They open an apartment door, they open another door. There was a bedroom with eight beds. Three, three and two under a window. I was like this (indicating). The smell was all this, you know, in summer with the hot of Florida, the shoes! Tennis shoes and sport shoes! I turned to the guy, I said, “No way do I stay here!” He said, “Oh, you go in ethics!” “No, no. I’m going to the airport. You misunderstood that. I don’t go in ethics. I go to the airport straight with the uniform! I go!” (interviewer laughs) Okay. So, they called me into the ethics. They made me write O/W’s, overts and withholds.
Stacy: Okay. So, now you got sent to the ethics officer because now you’re being told you’re doing something unethical because you’re refusing to move into this room with eight people?
Maria Pia: Mm-hmm.
Stacy: And they’re telling you that you need to write up your overts and withholds? Why would you have to write up overts and withholds?
Maria Pia: Because a Sea Org member must stay in a Sea Org berthing so that a Sea Org member can be treated like a piece of shit! But you know, Stacy, that most of the Sea Org members are young people. And they arrive in the Sea Org. You know why? Because they don’t have a place to sleep or soup to eat.
Stacy: So, they don’t have a choice?
Maria Pia: They go there because they don’t have one penny in their pocket. There are staff members that have money like Oscar Saldiaga and his wife. They lived in two cabanas in ______________.
Stacy: They were staff?
Maria Pia: Yeah, sure. Oscar Saldiaga and his wife. Also the daughter is Pilar Saldiaga is a CMO, Commodore Messenger staff.
Stacy: So, did you go to the ethics officer or did you go to the airport?
Maria Pia: I went to the ethics officer. I said, “I go.” He said, “No, you write O/W’s.” “You are crazy! I go! Bye bye!” You know, Debbie Cook was just posted. To lose a Class 9 auditor and CS OT-7 for her it wasn’t…
Stacy: Unacceptable.
Maria Pia: It wasn’t healthy. It wasn’t healthy.
Stacy: Wasn’t healthy, that’s right. (laughs)
Maria Pia: Wasn’t healthy. Absolutely. So, she said, “You know, we have in the Hacienda, five or six apartments that we rent to public. They are small apartments that public can rent when public comes here for long, long periods to do briefing course. You can have one of those. You are in the Hacienda. You’re not out of the Sea Org berthing.” I say, “Yes. Okay. Let’s go.” “There are not a lot of furnishings.” I say, “I have my furniture. I have a bedroom.” So, they send a truck to take my things. I was paying for that, $450 a month.
Stacy: So, now you’re paying for an apartment at the Hacienda?
Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. I had two bedrooms, a little bathroom, a little living room and a kitchen. No, it was not yet Debbie Cook. It was Ron Norton still. Debbie Cook arrived after one week I moved in the condo. I was alone for seven days in that apartment. After 7 days, we were six in the apartment.
Stacy: They started moving other people into your apartment?
Maria Pia: They moved the public and staff in my apartment.
Stacy: But you’re not still having to pay for it after that?
Maria Pia: No. Before was my D of P, Maria, was an Italian. I was happy. She said, “I will give you $50 a month.” And I said, “Leave this $50, you buy your food and…” We had a huge friendship. And we had everything inside. Since they started with the staff member in my apartment, every night I arrived and the fridge was empty! (interviewer laughs) There was nothing! Not even a bottle of water to drink! So, I said, “That’s it. The end!” I didn’t really want to go back to Italy. My daughter came with her husband to visit me for one week. She was OT-7, my daughter, before me. And so I went to a friend that was a realtor and I say, “Find me a condo.”
Stacy: A condominium.
Maria Pia: Yeah. He found me one. He found a nice apartment in Island Estates where I could stay. Two bedrooms, two bathrooms. And I bought it! And on one Saturday when nobody was there in the Hacienda, I took a truck and I transferred everything in it.
Transcript of Part Four
Maria Pia: Life went on and on. I was auditing. Then, OT-8 came out and the name of OT-8 is “Truth Revealed.” I say, “Here we are. I want to do OT-8!” So I bought the pack of OT-8 on the ship. Then, my daughter felt sick and I was called from Italy. They said, “She will never recover. She will die. Come back.”
Stacy: She was OT-7, though!
Maria Pia: Yeah. Yeah. Apparently, the didn’t have any BT of cluster left. She had something else. So, I wrote a CSW and said, “I need to go.” And the Captain, Debbie Cook, said “Okay. Go.” That was one and a half years later.
Stacy. This was in 90…
Maria Pia: That was the 24th of September, 1990. I left for Italy. I went to Milano. My daughter died the 18th of November, same year. So, after a couple of months. During that period, they tried 20 times to get me back. I said, “No way! It’s my only daughter. I am her mother! And no way I come back to Flag! Leave me alone!”
Stacy: How did she die, Maria?
Maria Pia: Aids. She died on the 18th of November. I had a bunch of Scientology coming because she was a mission holder so…
Stacy: Your daughter was?
Maria Pia: Yes. So a lot of…bunch of people coming to Milano. She died in Milano because she was in a hospital in Pavia. She died in Pavia, Italy, near Milano. We brought her to our cemetery in Tuscany. I went home to my mother. I will always remember my mother’s face. And there was the kid. She had a daughter, an 11 year old.
Stacy: Your daughter did?
Maria Pia: My granddaughter… she was 11. You know, one thing is to lose your mother when you are two. But when you are 11, and you are very close to your mother…
Stacy: Yeah.
Maria Pia: And you know, my granddaughter. She hates Scientology. She doesn’t want to hear anybody to speak about Scientology. I tried to put her in auditing, like that. She said, “That’s bullshit!” She told me, “Leave me alone!”
Stacy: Because she saw what happened to her mother.
Maria Pia: Yes. So I stayed at home for twelve days. Then they called me back from… They said, “Oh, you come back or you go to…” I say, “But I have my mother. I have the kid.” “You come back or you get in big trouble.” So, I came back to Flag. And the Captain said, “Okay, Maria Pia. We want you to go to do OT-8. You have to discharge this pain.” “You are paid. You go on the ship to do OT-8.” I bought the flight and I went to the Bahamas on the Freewinds. I arrived and the first thing they say, “You have to do a sec check.” I went nuts! I say, “So why? My daughter has died! I didn’t kill her! Where is the crime I committed?”
Stacy: This is how they take care of you after your daughter has died?
Maria Pia: At the end, so I start to discharge it…being in another place not being at home. It was easier to…
Stacy: You start to feel a little bit of relief?
Maria Pia: Feel a little bit better. Less grief, less…So, I arrived the day that I went in the OT-8 course room.
Stacy: And this is truth revealed now.
Maria Pia: This is truth revealed. It revealed to me that I had to leave Scientology.
Stacy: Why? What happened?
Maria Pia: Why???!! First I find the first out-tech. There’s a list called CS 53.
Stacy: A correction list?
Maria Pia: A correction list that an auditor does until the old list, the meter is FN’ing. And LRH says, “You cannot do it in solo.” The first thing I found was a CS 53 to FN’ing list is solo. I swear. Mm-hmm.
Stacy: No! You’re kidding.
Maria Pia: I said, “This is ridiculous!” “That’s only for OT-8,” the supervisor told me.
Stacy: So, it’s out-tech until you get to OT-8 and then it’s okay.
Maria Pia: Yeah. That’s okay. So, I did the first pack very fast in one day because I was auditing every day those actions so I can do another. I can do them myself. That’s not the problem.
Stacy: So, that’s not any truth revealed yet.
Maria Pia: No. Then the truth revealed arrived! I opened the pack of the truth revealed. I tell you, Stacy, I was like that (indicating), I was like a stone. Then, I said, “Maybe they make a fault and gave me the wrong pack.” So, I asked the supervisor, “Is that pack OT-8 theta?” “Oh, yes! That’s the truth revealed.” I said, “That’s bullshit.”
Stacy: What does it say?
Maria Pia: BT!
Stacy: No! (laughs)
Maria Pia: More people on the chair with you. And that’s crazy! The data is you have to go back, back, back on the track to find all the overts of the track until you are like the shell, you know?
Stacy: The clam!
A History of Man (2007)
Maria Pia: The clam! The History of Man. You go back. So you arrive to the clam, pluck, pluck.
Stacy: You do History of Man on OT-8?
Maria Pia: Yeah, you have to read it, The History of Man.
Stacy: No! (laughs)
Maria Pia: Yes. When you find this overt, you locate the BT and you ask him, “Is it yours?” “Is it mine?” And you will get the read. And so I said, “Is this the truth revealed?”
Stacy: Oh, dear! (laughs)
Maria Pia: So, to stay here like a stupid in front of a meter, paying a cabin what it costs on the Freewinds!
Stacy: How much does it cost?
Maria Pia: Oh, $8,000 is the course OT-8 course. So, you sit down there and you start to ask, “Is it yours? Is it mine? Is it of somebody else?” Until you get no more read. Something happened during OT-8, one day I was auditing and I felt like my daughter was there. “Oh,” I say, _______________ is you?” And the meter started to…it was an emotion. My miss-emotion was reading! Start with _____. Floating TA.
Stacy: And a floating TA is really, really good.
Maria Pia: And the needle goes up and down and you can’t stop it. I said, “I finished OT-8.” I wrote to the Senior CS, “My OT-8 is done.” I said, “I don’t want this garbage anymore.” I was thinking I would go down back to Flag. I pack my luggage and go to Italy and route out. I said, “That’s it. It’s finished.”
Stacy: You’re done with Scientology.
Maria Pia: Yeah, but it’s no so easy.
Stacy: Yeah.
Maria Pia: So, the night-this is nice-the night I attested to OT-8, I went offshore with some friends. And we went to see the casino in Nassau in the Bahamas.
Stacy: In Nassau?
Maria Pia: Guess what! Guess who were there!
Stacy: Who?
Maria Pia: David Miscaviage, Ray Mitoff and the ED Int. _______________. They were gambling like crazy!
Stacy: You’re kidding!
Maria Pia: No. I’m not kidding.
Stacy: But that’s not…
Maria Pia: With our money!
Stacy: That’s not allowed in Scientology, is it?
Maria Pia: They are the management. I know they do what they want. They were gambling. And that’s nice because they saw me.
Stacy: They saw you there?Maria Pia: Uh-huh. The day after I was called by the Senior CS Margaret __________. She told me, “Okay. Please don’t tell. They were just once in a while, you know, just to…they wanted to see the casino.” I said, “No. I wanted to see the casino.” They were sitting at the tables gambling!” So, I came back to Flag. I don’t know. I still had my daughter’s death and I don’t know. I didn’t feel like starting a fight at that moment. I went back on the chair auditing and that’s it.
Stacy: But how did you feel about Scientology by that time?
Maria Pia: Oh, bad. Bad. Just that moment I felt very bad. I was looking for a way to get out. And that way arrived nine months later when I got a phone call that my mother was hospitalized and she was dying. That was 11 months after my daughter’s death. So, they say, “Yes, but your mother is old. She can drop the _________” I say, “That’s it. I’m the only daughter.” I say, “You approve my CSW, I go. You don’t approve my CSW, I go anyway.” They didn’t approve my CSW.
Stacy: They wouldn’t let you go?
Maria Pia: I took my suitcases and went to Italy.
Stacy: You left anyway?
Maria Pia: Yeah, I left anyway. So, let’s arrive to my mother’s death, that was December 11, 1991. The 21st of December, 1991, my mother was out. Three days after, Debbie Cook, the Captain of Flag, called me and said, “You know, Maria, there’s a new project. Class 8 for it.” I said, “Listen, my mother is still not in the grave. Wait a moment.” Eight, nine days after my mother’s death, I arrive in my…I had a huge villa where my parents were living in Tuscany near Grosceto. At 2:00 in the afternoon, _____________ was the Flag In Charge for Italy, he was a Sea Org member. The other one was a public, Michael ___________, it was a very good friend of my daughter. More or less same age, was an FSM for Flag.
Stacy: Now an FSM is a field staff member. That’s a person who takes ten percent commission from everybody that they are able to get into a new service. Is that right?
Maria Pia: Yeah, but that’s not legal.
Stacy: No. But that’s what it is, isn’t it?
Maria Pia: That’s what it is. They came and they start to talk to me. They say, “You know, you are a full Class 9 because you are an auditor.” I say, “No. Wait a moment. I did also Class 8 and I’m on Class 10. I’m more than a full Class 9.” “Yeah, but you know, that’s wonderful. You know that’s a project!” They know that I love Italy. I love my country. And they know that every time I was telling them, “We need people trained in Flag.”
Stacy: So, you felt like there ought to be more people that had been trained at Flag in Italy.
Maria Pia: Yeah, from Italy. They start to say, “You know, that’s a huge project to make Class 8 auditor and 200 Italian.” I say, “Where do you find 200 auditors in Italy?”
Stacy: The project was to make 200 Italian Class 8 auditors?
Maria Pia: Class 8 auditors and CS’s from Italy and Switzerland but Italian Switzerland! That corner of Switzerland…that’s Italy. “The project would cost 2 million dollars.” I say, “Oh. Good. Who will pay for it?” I say, “I will never do it. Don’t ask me for 2 million dollars!” I say, “You are crazy or what?” “No, but you can start to do the first donation!” Meanwhile, they were there, Debbie Cook called from five to six times, talking to them, speaking to __________ and to me. “Yeah, Maria, you know, you will help your country. Your country had the raid and they were shut off. So, you can help your country.” I said, “Thank you.” I was so pissed off! I said, “Listen, Guys…” “But you inherited now.” I said, “No. Wait a moment! Before I inherit, I have pay all the inheritance taxes. And I don’t know how much it is.” “Well, you start the first donation.” So, I gave them $35,000, $30,000 – I don’t remember. I think it was $35,000. I check out – I want to stay in peace. I was decided not to come back to Flag.
Stacy: Had you told anybody?
Maria Pia: No! I wouldn’t tell anybody. I was telling them, “That’s all the inheritance…” you know, “…it takes time It takes time.”
Stacy: You were stalling?
Maria Pia: I was taking time-taking time. In the meantime, they were sending people to me to be audited in my house.
Stacy: They were?
Maria Pia: Staff members. So, my house started to become, you know, it was like a train station. People entering and people going out.
Stacy: This was in Tuscany?
Maria Pia: Yeah. My parents’ house. One morning, my maid came and said, “Oh, Mrs. Gardini, we have a problem.” I said, “What problem?” “We have two people sleeping in the car in the garden.” I say, “What is this?” There were two Sea Org members sleeping in the car. I said, “What the hell are you doing?” “You know, because we didn’t want to disturb you…” I say, “At what time did you arrive?” “At 2:00 in the night.” “Sure, you disturb at 2:00 in the night!” So, I gave them some money just to send them away, you know. A little money – they are happy. They have a check in their hands.
Stacy: They were trying to get you to pay for this Class 8 auditor project?
Maria Pia: Yeah. For that Italian Class 8 auditor project. That is terrible!
Maria Pia: At a certain point, I said, “I need to go back to Flag.” I arrived at the Hubbard Guidance Center.
Stacy: HGC, which is where people get audited.
Maria Pia: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Of OT 8 eligibility, it was like if the virgin arrived because there were eighteen people-Italian people-and no Italian auditor. I say, “How can I go back now?” I was trapped! I felt trapped but all those were my PC’s.
Stacy: So, you felt like the ethical thing to do was to take care of those PC’s?
Maria Pia: Yeah. People that you have audited that believe in you! I have to take care of them. So I’m back on the chair. And it started the story. “You have to give,” the Captain said, “you have to give at least one million dollars.” They knew by heart every piece of inheritance I had! I don’t know where they got the information!
Stacy: How did they know? You didn’t tell them?
Maria Pia: No.
Stacy: How did they find out?
Maria Pia: They hired an investigator? I don’t know! They knew everything! I said, “Okay. But in the next year, before 365 days my mother’s death, I had to pay inheritance tax! I didn’t know until now how much it is. I will know in six or seven months.” “Oh, but you inherited a billion, you know.” And that started, you know, Stacy, that was terrible! I gave them all the money I had in my account here. Then…
Stacy: You gave them all the money you had at Flag?
Maria Pia: Yeah, all! The bank account. Then, one day, the Captain-every time it was Wednesday! Thursday morning, at 8:00 I was taking up the chair to the Captain to the Reg officer, back and forth…
Stacy: Well, that’s significant because the week ends at 2:00 on Thursday.
Maria Pia: Yeah, sure. Statistics!
Stacy: So, there always is a big push on getting money in right before 2:00 on Thursday, isn’t there?
Maria Pia: Yeah. And the problem was that I didn’t have money here! You know, I don’t keep hundreds of millions here! I keep-I had $35,000 in my bank account. I was supposed to live on that. I had my own house. I didn’t have any rent to pay. Once the Captain was in the Registrar’s office…
Stacy: This is Debbie Cooke?
Maria Pia: Yeah. What was the name of the CMO guy there? The husband of Pilar Saldariaga? The blonde guy from CMO, Commodore Messenger…
Stacy: I don’t know.
Maria Pia: …and Pear Amquist, that was my Registrar. They shut the door and say, “Okay, Maria Pia. We need your help. We need to have all the OT Class 8 material translated in Italian. Because we have to get Italian here. You speak English. You can study in English-not a lot of Italians can do it, so…” I say, “So what? Translate it!” At the first moment, I saw they wanted me to help translate in Italian.” No, they wanted the money! I say, “How can I give you the money? I might have $1,000 in the bank-no more!” And if I don’t go to Italy to sign at my bank, my banker will not send out a penny!” It wasn’t true but I tried. “Oh, we found people that will give you money.” I say, “Who?” “Oh, your FSM, Ciara Staples.”
Stacy: She’s in Italy?
Maria Pia: No, she’s here. She’s an American. You know, FSMing, she bought a villa for $180,000 in Minnesota.
Stacy: She’s buying a villa for herself with commissions?
Maria Pia: For herself, yeah. With the commissions. Her husband is a construction in Minnesota. Anyway, Ciara…I look at her, like this-she told them, “I have money. If Maria said that she will give it back to me, okay.” And she arrived with a paper bag with $50,000 in cash!
Stacy: Cash??
Maria Pia: Cash. She didn’t keep that on the bank account. You pay taxes on that. She had it in a safe.
Stacy: Well, but isn’t the law that no individual is supposed to make any money off of money that is going to a non-profit organization?
Maria Pia: Yeah. That’s the law. But Ciara didn’t put that money on the bank account. She changed the check and she had a big safe in the back full of hundred dollar bills! Full! So, she arrived with $50,000. I say, “Why did you do this?” She said, “Well, you have the money.” Okay. That was $50,000. Let’s go to the next Wednesday. They called and said, “You know, $50,000 is not enough even to start the translation.”
Stacy: Oh no!
Maria Pia: I said, “So what?” “We found somebody that will give you money!” I said, “Who?” “Teresa Bloom.” Teresa Bloom is very rich. She is Swiss. She married Gerome Bloom. Teresa called her mother in Switzerland and her mother sent $100,000 to the Church. I had to sign a paper to Teresa that I, within one month, would pay her back the money. There’s not a lot of public here or staff that has all that money.
Stacy: (laughs) They found another one!
Maria Pia: Oh, they found another one! After a few times, I don’t know how many weeks. I didn’t count the days. They called, it was Thursday morning at 6:00 in the morning. I had a person knocking at the door at my condo. “Rush! Rush! Rush…” they say, “the Captain wants you!” I said, “I’m in pajamas at 6:00! I’m not supposed to be dressed at 6:00!” So, I get dressed in my uniform. I went to Fort Harrison and in the basement of Fort Harrison where the IAS area is.
Stacy: International Association of Scientologists.
Maria Pia: There’s a room. There were Captain FSO and Bob Foster…no…
Stacy: Bill?
Maria Pia: No. Foster, the Reg. Dave Foster, the lobster as I call him. When he gets hungry, he becomes so red, red, red! Every time, I am afraid he will get a stroke.
Stacy: So, this is Debbie Cooke, the CO?
Maria Pia: Debbie Cooke. She still is the CO. She makes good money. I thought there was something going on in Italy at my house, you know? So, when they come to wake you up at 6:00, you don’t think it’s for money again! Oh, “Maria. Here we are. We need you to arrive to a one million dollar donation.” I said, “I can’t!” Before leaving from Italy, let me go back a moment, I put some land to sale. I don’t know how they know that the land was sold!
Stacy: They knew that too?
Maria Pia: They know everything! They have spies all around! So, I said, “You know, the money cannot come out from Italy if I don’t go to Italy.” I was thinking if I go to Italy, you will never see me again! (interviewer laughs) “We found somebody! We found somebody in Italy.” So, they put me on a conference call with Franco Badjo. That is the biggest ______________! He was one of my PC’s! Very rich. And Tito Matsa, the FCAC was at his house.
Stacy: Who was Tito Matsa?
Maria Pia: The FCAC. The one that came to my house to take the first donation.
Stacy: Oh, the Flag Service Consultant.
Maria Pia: Right. So, conference call…I couldn’t say to Franco Badjo, “Say you don’t have the money.” Because Tito Matsa was there and he was understanding Italian. At that point, I was a bit afraid because they had my passport and I thought I’d never get out of there.
Stacy: What do you mean, they had your passport?
Maria Pia: They asked me for my passport because they said to give the passport to OSA to have the green card. I knew that I couldn’t have the green card.
Stacy: To give it to OSA?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I went to OSA 20 times. Nobody was looking for my passport. “It’s not here. It’s in the other drawer.”
Stacy: They wouldn’t give it to you?
Maria Pia: At that point, I started to be afraid. I said, “They have my passport.” Tito Matsa understands Italian. If I said to Franco Badjo, “Don’t give the money,” I will never get out of here. But I had the force to say, “Franco, if you want to, give them the money. But I am afraid I don’t know how much taxes I have to pay.” Okay, talk to communication, the Captain of Flag went-Debbie Cook-went out of the room. She was called for a phone call.
Stacy: I can imagine.
Maria Pia: And Dave Foster started to yell at me! I was becoming a couple of centimeters shorter every time he opened his mouth! He was yelling at me! And I was saying, “No, that’s…
Stacy: What was he saying to you?
Maria Pia: “You are not a good Scientologist. You are a bitch! That’s not the way to act in life. Your properties are Scientology properties. I said, “Why? My parents are working their whole life to make that property.” “No, you have to give that. You don’t want to help your country. You don’t know how to help Italy. You are a bitch!” He told me that I was a bitch, like, ten times! At the end, I said, “No. I don’t want to.” He slapped me…Stacy: He slapped you?
Maria Pia: Yeah, on the face. And that was the moment I went in terror. I said, “I will never get out alive from here!”
Stacy: I can’t believe it!
Maria Pia: You know, there was already two deaths in that Fort Harrison. Two public that died and it wasn’t well known if they really died or what. I thought, “Here, I don’t go home. I will not ever see my granddaughter.” Debbie Cooke came in again. She made it…purposely, she left me with David Foster alone.
Stacy: She did, didn’t she?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I had tears in my eyes. I told to David Foster, “If you move one finger again, I will go to the police!” But I was afraid. I was shaking. Really, Stacy, I was shaking! So, they called Franco Badjo again, another conference call, I said, “But in one month…” He understood that I was in big problem. So, he said, “In one month, I need the money. You have to come to Italy and give me the money.” I said, “Okay. Frank. We will meet you.” And that was $200,000! So, it started to become very heavy, the cycle, you know? I had money sent to me from Italy every month from my bank-the income from the stores, the income. So, every week was $5,000. It was on and on and on. At a certain point…
Stacy: You mean, every week after that you were having to give them more money?
Maria Pia: Yeah. $5,000.
Stacy: So, they were calling you in every week?
Maria Pia: Yeah, every week.
Stacy: And saying you have to give more money.
Maria Pia: Every week! Every night! Twice a week. That was continuous. I had peace only when I was in my apartment. You know why? Because I took off the phone. I wasn’t answering the doorbell. So, I said, “bye bye.” I turned on the TV and that’s it.
Stacy: Why weren’t you trying to leave and go back to Italy?
Maria Pia: Without the passport?
Stacy: So, you couldn’t get your passport back?
Maria Pia: I wouldn’t get out from the company without the passport.
Stacy: But you had to arrange some reason for them to give you your passport back?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I was looking for a…so, I called Franco Badjo twice. I said, “Franco. You told me you need the money in one month. So, you must call your Registrar and say to send me to Italy because I cannot give you back your money if I don’t come to Italy.” They called me another time and that time was really terrible. They knew that the land had been sold and they knew that the land has been paid. And they knew I had the money in the bank in Italy.
Stacy: How could they know?
Maria Pia: A good Italian private investigator can know everything you want. So, at that point, I was called again. And I was told clearly, “You have the money in the bank. Now, you can transfer the money.” I said, “How can I transfer the money without going down there and signing?” Another conference call was with the director of my bank.
Stacy: No!
Maria Pia: And in the room with us, there was Cozima.
Stacy: Cozima is an Italian woman at Flag. Is that right?
Maria Pia: Yes. She was at that time the Staff MA.
Stacy: She was an ethics officer at Flag?
Maria Pia: No, at that time, she was a public ethics officer. I don’t remember who was there. I remember the Captain…
Stacy: Debbie Cooke.
Maria Pia: Debbie Cooke, I remember Dave Foster in the room. He went in and out. There were other people. I don’t remember who. There was an Italian…that, I am sure. The director of the bank said, “Okay. Mrs. Gardini, if you send me a fax with a copy of your document,” like, “a passport and sign it, I can send you the money.” They wanted $500,000.
Stacy: The Scientologists did?
Maria Pia: Yeah, the Scientologists. I said, “I don’t have any documents. I don’t have any papers. My passport is at OSA.” I said. In three seconds, the passport that was missing for weeks, in three seconds, the passport has feet and arrives from OSA to Flag! That was wonderful. (interviewer laughs) So, we made a photocopy of the passport.
Stacy: It’s a miracle, isn’t it?
Maria Pia: I took the passport and I put it in my pocket. I said, “You have to put your hands in my trousers pocket if you want the passport. Otherwise, it doesn’t come out.” And that was another $300,000! They understood at that point that I had to go to Italy if they wanted more money. So, I arrived in Italy and I went to the bank. And what happened was that the amount of inheritance taxes was double what I thought! And I had to sell the camping place. I had to pay the inheritance taxes!
Stacy: You had to sell the Villa in Tuscany?
Maria Pia: No, I had the camping place. It’s a big piece of land. Like 40,000 square meters. And I had to sell it. At this point, I was seeing money going out like a river. And staff members are continuously coming, coming and coming and Charmaine coming for the cornerstone in _____________.
Stacy: What’s a cornerstone?
Maria Pia: That huge building that is the super power building.
Stacy: This building they are building in downtown Clearwater?
Maria Pia: The stone of that, $35,000 dollars. That right there is expensive stone. You could do it in gold.
Stacy: So, one stone of the building cost $35,000?
Maria Pia: Yeah. They say, “We put your name in a stone in a corner.” I don’t want it. I don’t want my name nowhere where there is a Scientology sign. That must be clear! But I had Charmaine. The officer of the super power coming to my house on the first of January at noon.
Stacy: In Italy?
Maria Pia: Yeah. I said, “That’s it. I don’t have one penny more.” I have the villa. I sold, you know, I have all those to survive. Camilla had to eat, has to go to school, so…I came back. I arrived and nobody knew that I was coming back to Flag. I arrived at home. I was two days rested. I took a rest, I took some sun at the pool and then I went to the ethics officer and I said, “Give me the routing form to route out from the Sea Org.” “You want to leave the Sea Org?” “Yes, sir!” I said, “And don’t tell me anything because I don’t listen to you!” So, the captain called me _____________. It took two months to route out. Normally, in one week you can do the route out. They wanted me to clean all the folder rooms. They made me buy a Class 12 intensive auditing to be audited on the sec check that you have to do to go out. That is…
Stacy: You even had to buy your sec check to leave?
Maria Pia: Yes. A Class 12. Not even a Class 9, a Class 12. It is written that it is free in the routing form.
Stacy: That’s incredible, Maria.
Maria Pia: I wanted to go out with the stats so nobody could say anything. It took me two months. And then I went home.
Maria Pia: Then I said, “Why do I keep an apartment here in Florida if I stay in Italy?” So, I called Jim Natzer and I said, “Sell my condo.” It was very easy. In three days, he sold it. I don’t know but they have ears and tents. I don’t know what they have, the Scientologists there. I was coming out from the bank…
Stacy: In Florida?
Maria Pia: Yes. AmSouth Bank where I got the money.
Stacy: For the sale of the condominium.
Maria Pia: I found four people-four officers of Scientology-out of the bank. They took me to Fort Harrison, at the last floor there, the special LRH properties. Do you know they made in gold all this bullshit? And they made…
Stacy: What did they make in gold?
Maria Pia: The Scientology books in steel. Yeah, because you can put it under the earth and the next generation, when they arrive, they’ll say “What is this bullshit?” (interviewer laughs)
Stacy: But you can buy those?
Maria Pia: They are not so cute. But you can buy those. You can buy an apartment with the price of those. I was kept there by four officers.
Stacy: And what happened?
Maria Pia: You know what happened? I made a check of $25,000 to get out! I bought the Dianetics book of steel. But they are thieves because the Dianetics Book of Steel are six boxes. They sent me the first two boxes in Italy and that’s it! They must have two spare boxes they say, “That poor stupid. We sent two. That’s enough.”
Stacy: They never even sent you what you paid for?
Maria Pia: No. And those two boxes I threw in the garbage with all the rest of Scientology material. If you come to my house, there’s nothing. The gold crest of OT7, the gold crest of OT8…everything is gone to the garbage! The bust of LRH – everything! I had nausea, you know? When I hear Scientology, I have nausea! When I took the last flight for Italy, you know, it was like as if I was 20 years younger. That was the truth revealed! Not OT8! That was truth revealed to get away from the people! (laughs) But that started all the tax problems.
Stacy: What do you mean?
Maria Pia: I mean that I didn’t have…I was broke. At that point, I was broke. I gave one million dollars for donations plus. This is another point-before leaving Flag, I realized that in the Class 8 course room, there was no one that was Italian. So, I was regged for a one million dollar donation for Italy?? There was not one Italian! And the material of Class would not have been translated. So, I went to the Captain, I said, “I want my money back!”
Stacy: You went to Debbie Cooke?
Maria Pia: Yeah! And she showed me, “You know, look!” She brought me-near the auditorium there is a marble block with all the names of the donators. “Your name is in gold there!” I said, “I am no longer a Sea Org member.” She said, “No, you’re routed out.” Okay, I said, “Debbie!” I do not say “sir” – “Debbie! Take away that name from there! I am not dead yet!” You put it there when I die. I am not dead yet. And I want my money back! Because you-that was a trick-the story of Italy like that. We have Japanese, American, English, Australian and the only Italian that was in the course room took off because he couldn’t study in English!”
Stacy: So, the whole thing was a fraud?
Maria Pia: It was a fraud, a total fraud! The Captain, FSO, Mrs. Debbie Cooke bought a new car with my money! It’s not from that…
Stacy: What do you mean?
Maria Pia: She bought a car!
Stacy: She got some of the money that you donated for the Class 8?
Maria Pia: Yes. Because see, apparently, she told-it was the ethics officer that told me, it’s not that I knew from her-because I saw her with a new car. I said, “Oh, is she rich from her house that she bought a car?” An expensive car! She said, “No, she got the commission on your donation.” I said, “My one million dollar donation? She got the commission?”
Stacy: Oh my gosh!
Maria Pia: “And she bought a car?” So it’s for this that I gave my money and I went broke?” I was furious! I left and I said, “Debbie, you are no longer my Captain. I call you Debbie. Debbie, I want my money back!”
Stacy: What did she say?
Maria Pia: I said, “I will go in the Court and get that because that’s fraud!” I said, “I’m broke! I have to sell my parents’ house!” And I left. Altogether, I gave Scientology more than two million dollars! Anyway, I went to a lawyer. I had problems, you know, problems to the point that I was losing the furniture in my house. I don’t know how they knew it-because they know everything. I am sure they know that I am here talking to you. I am sure! So they called me and they said, “We can make an arrangement.” And they sent a person to Rome where they have a lawyer with a check.
Stacy: What is this?
Maria Pia: Yeah, she was doing like that (indicating) with the check under my nose, knowing that I was losing the furniture in my house because of them. And say, “Okay. Let’s talk about the one million dollar donation.” I said, “Let’s talk about everything, not only about the one million dollar donation.” So they made me sign an agreement that I would have left $500,000 and get $500,000 back.
Stacy: They agreed to give you half the money back?
Maria Pia: Half the money of the donation!
Stacy: Of the Class 8 auditor donation?
Maria Pia: Yeah! Not of the money that I paid for my bridge, for OT levels, for all the other garbage.
Stacy: So, this was just for the Class 8 donation?
Maria Pia: Yeah, for the Class 8 donation.
Stacy: In return for what? Did they tell you?
Maria Pia: They wanted to help me. They were very helpful, you know? The Captain of Flag is very helpful. I remember I told her, “If you are so helpful, you should have just left me in peace when I was down there.” So, anyway, they sent me 3 checks: one month, one month, one month…the half million dollars. I don’t have a copy of that agreement.
Stacy: You didn’t get a copy of the agreement?
Maria: No. Because they said, “We have to bring the agreement back and it must be signed in Flag also by the Captain.” By, I don’t know, by David Miscaviage, the other thief, the other big thief! I never had a copy of that.
Stacy: They didn’t send it to you?
Maria: No! I asked a lot of times. And they told me, “You know, you are in good standing. You still have $29,000 on your account. If you ever want to come to Flag as a public to have a good time in Florida or to get some auditing.” I will never have that. But something in my head clicked. After a few months, I called Flag and the girl at the call-in, Natalie, told me, “But I don’t think you have any money.” I said, “Wait a moment. I had a $29,000 in my account.” She said, “Call me back tomorrow.” I called back the day after, she said, “No. First of all, you don’t have any money.” I said, “No, Natalie. You are wrong.” “No. That money is no longer there. Second, we don’t agree that you can come to Flag.”
Stacy: But did they say that you weren’t in good standing after all?
Maria: Well, to make me sign, yes.
Stacy: But they told you that if you would agree to take only half of your money back then, in return for that, you would be able to continue to get services at Flag?
Maria: Yeah.
Stacy: But then when you called, it turned out that that was untrue. You weren’t allowed to continue to get services at Flag?
Maria: No. I wasn’t allowed. So, at that moment, I took a paper and pen and I wrote to the Captain, FSO, Mrs. Debbie Cooke. I wrote to Mr. Miscaviage that is at the top of all this. I wrote to the EDE, Mr. Geome LaSavre. I said, “I want all my money back!” I wanted a total refund!
Stacy: Not just of the money from the…
Maria: No, I wanted it all! All the money that I gave for my services that were bullshit that never had any…I didn’t feel well, I felt…I was a wealthy person when I arrived in Scientology. I was like a beggar at the end. They took everything from me!
Stacy: And you…
Maria: No answer. No answer. No answer. I wrote to the CLO Italy where I was the Qual Sec, Italy. It came out that they didn’t know me!
Stacy: What do you mean?
Maria: They didn’t know me. “We have no track of you.” (interviewer laughs) I wrote to…
Stacy: Unbelievable!
Maria: That is the biggest. I wrote to the Rome Org. It was my org where I started. It came out that “We have no track of you here that you paid something here.”
Stacy: You’re kidding!
Maria: I wrote in answer, I said, “Look at the bust of LRH you have at the door. Every time you go in and out, that is paid by me!” I went to a lawyer. I was, for three years, Stacy, I was going around, like, stupid. Then Carl Brown Steiner that’s a very good friend of mine from Austria told me of your group.
Stacy: About the Lisa McPherson Trust?
Maria: Yeah. That’s why I came to you. You know, I feel, like, stupid. I was stupid. But they-what they did to me-was to wait until my daughter died. My daughter was dead. My mother was dead. I was in pain and having emotional troubles. At that moment, they caught me. They never would have caught me if I were normal, like I am now. Now, I am a normal person.
Stacy: Yeah.
Maria: No more BTs. Nothing.
Stacy: Well, how do you feel about Scientology after this whole experience?
Maria: It’s not a religion. It’s a money making group. It’s not a religion at all. And I feel that Scientology doesn’t help anybody. It helps only the pockets of the INT management. That I know.
Notes
- Transcript retrieved on 25 May 2023 from https://archive.org/ ↩